Hocemo Li Na Kafu?

The roar of the masses could be farts.

25.11.07

Sixty years ago we fought fascism with rifles and bombs, now we do it with a vigourous chinwag over cheese and port

David Irving and Nick Griffin are to speak at the Oxford Union after all. Dr Julian Lewis, the Tory MP for New Forest East, and a life member of the OU, has resigned from the Oxford Union in protest. The BBC reports
In a letter to the union's officers and standing committee, Dr Lewis said he was resigning his life membership "with great sadness".

The MP, who studied at Balliol and St Antony's colleges, said the right to free speech should not guarantee access to privileged platforms.

"Nothing which happens in Monday's debate can possibly offset the boost you are giving to a couple of scoundrels who can put up with anything except being ignored," he said.

"It is sheer vanity on your part to imagine that any argument you deploy, or any vote you carry will succeed in causing them damage.

"They have been exposed and discredited time and again by people vastly more qualified than you in arenas hugely more suited to the task than an undergraduate talking-shop, however venerable."
Indeed. The vanity and arrogance of it all is perhaps the most striking aspect of it. For example, this, from the description of the "If you value free speech, then let Griffin and Irving debate" Facebook group:
I say bring it on! I'm confident that Irving and Griffin are wrong, and I'm happy to argue with them publicly, not silence them. Tolerance and truth will always win through. But if we shut them up, we make martyrs of them, and give the world the impression that we have something to hide.
Confident that David Irving is wrong? What courage! I mean, Deborah Lipstadt fought David Irving over libel charges, which resulted in Irving's credibility as a historian being completely and utterly shattered in a court of law, but hey, why let her have all the glory, right? Then again, Lipstadt understands how the mind of a Holocaust denier works. From her blog:
Challenging someone such as David Irving has little to do with intelligence, it has to do with knowing how he is lying and distorting the facts. And as smart as Oxford students may think they are, just because they are at Oxford does not mean they have the knowledge...to catch a liar who distorts and falsifies.
This is really the crux of the matter. You cannot debate with fascists. This doesn't mean that we necessarily need to kill them or lock them up in prison, but we certainly don't need to open our doors to them.

UPDATE: Brian Klug has a very good piece up on Comment is Free about why the Griffin-Irving debate isn't an issue of free speech.

UPDATE 2: Peter Tatchell: "Not offering hate-mongers a platform is not the same as banning them. Hundreds of topical public speakers and first-rate debaters never get invited to address the Oxford Union. They are not being censored."

UPDATE 3: Hak Mao on the threat of violence in Oxford as far-right activists are expected to launch counter demonstrations.

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10 Comments:

  • At 05:46, Blogger Lee said…

    "You cannot debate with fascists"

    By your logic you cannot debate with anyone who lies and distorts the truth unless you are a professor of history in a British libel trial. Ridiculous.

     
  • At 09:30, Blogger Graeme said…

    Lee, you're a nihilist. Fuck off.

     
  • At 15:57, Anonymous David said…

    It was just on Channel 4 news but sadly Jon Snow was not let out of his cage to have a go at the pompous OU president. They sent Darshna Soni instead and she's crap. She just nodded and smiled.

     
  • At 08:56, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said…

    Lee, you're a cretin. People like Griffin and Irving do not want a debate, or a dialogue about opposing views or factual arguments. They want a pantomime they can perform at to give credibility to their rancid views, and the veneer of 'respectability' that an invite to the OU will give them.

    You shouldn't silence fascists, but you shouldn't build a podium for them and hand them a mike either.

     
  • At 09:58, Anonymous Will said…

    "You shouldn't silence fascists"

    yes you should. By any means at hand.

     
  • At 12:15, Blogger Graeme said…

    I'm with Will on this.

     
  • At 21:59, Blogger Mark, Ottawa said…

    The book, as it were, on Irving:

    "Lying about Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial"

    Mark
    Ottawa

     
  • At 06:02, Anonymous sackcloth and ashes said…

    Reading Will's 09.58 comment, I think I'd better rephrase myself.

    'You shouldn't silence fascists by censorship, as it is contrary to the principles of a liberal democratic state ...'

    But the rest of the argument still stands, and yes there will be cases where fascism must be resisted by force, if the alternative is capitulation (whether it's Cable Street or WWII). I don't underestimate the BNP or shits like Irving, but we're a long way from that stage.

     
  • At 17:10, Blogger Graeme said…

    The absolutely idiotic thing about this whole debacle is that it was never in the first instance about debate. Cunts like Lee's pal Brendan O'Neill will talk about no platforming fascists will allow "cranky elements on the right to pose as the true upholders of open debate", but it's mostly the so-called advocates of free speech who are making them out to be martyrs. Otherwise they wouldn't have been invited to debate about free speech.

    There's a need to engage with the BNP's ideas. That the BNP is becoming increasingly electable, at least on the level of councils, is a genuine cause for concern. It's necessary to address why the BNP is gaining political ground and why white working class electors see them as a viable political choice. However, engaging with these ideas doesn't mean inviting the BNP to debate, and it certainly doesn't mean celebrating them (with the usual caveats explaining how we are of course very much against the BNP) as "the true upholders of free debate".

    It's more evidence, if any was needed, as to why the RCPers are nihilists.

     
  • At 11:30, Blogger Tom said…

    Cracking post G.

    Letting David Irving talk his hateful lies isn't about free speech. If I did a talk on Shakespeare saying that he wrote Great Expectations and lived in London in 1920 I'd be ran out of town on a rail for talking complete rubbish. No one would be saying I had a right to say it because of 'free speech'.

    Griffin just wants any kind of platform at all and this kind of invite only attempts to legitimise his racist bile that should be confined to his pals’ potting sheds.

     

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